J: It’s been awhile since we’ve talked so I think this will be a nice catch up for the both of us.

E: Yeah, it’s been a few years!

J: Where did you grow up?

E: I was born in the Valley. But when I was seven, my parents moved us to San Clemente. A little beach town in OC. It’s beautiful there but not a lot of diversity. I had a bit of a culture shock.

J: It’s a lot of white folks, right?

E: Right.

J: Was there a lot of exposure to art there for you?

E: I don’t know. A lot of the art in San Clemente is like surf and sea shell art. And it seemed like that was more like a hobby than a career. But that counter-culture was there with the punk and surf creatives. That’s what I gravitated towards and I went to a lot of garage shows! So that opened a creative outlet for me. My friend and I started this little art zine full of collages and shitty poetry that we would print and scan in our high school library and pass around. So that was basically my introduction to art and then eventually I took an art history class that made me fall in love with architecture.

J: Oh, you started off as an architecture major, right?

E: Yeah, yeah! I used to do a lot of drawings and paintings but I never thought that was a career option for me. So when I learned about architecture, I knew that’s what I wanted to pursue.

J: And that’s like a big thing though! Getting into the architecture department at Cal Poly Pomona is tough compared to the art department.

E: Yeah! And I have a lot to say about that program. Hahaha

Every year they accept 100 students and every freshman takes the same architecture classes and if you fail you have to wait a whole year to take those classes again. They even sat us all down and told us that out of all the students here, only 10 of us will still be here and walk during graduation. So the dropout rate was really high.

J: It was always so funny to me because you can always tell who in the art department transferred from the architecture department. You all hung out with each other probably due to the mutual pain that program put you through.

E: Hahaha! Yeah, it’s definitely the journey because we all stayed up doing all nighters together. So yeah, anyone you knew who transferred out with you was definitely your buddy.

J: It’s crazy how different the two majors (Graphic Design and Architecture) as groups work together. Graphic design majors mostly kept to themselves and took their work home. I think it’s much later in the program that you start to have your groups that you begin to develop spaces with. But, architecture students are known to have their clicks like right away in their freshmen year. And I think that due to them having to work in the same space as each other.

E: I felt that when I made the switch. It also made making friends harder. Graphic design classes are just a lot more straightforward. And again, it’s how the curriculum is run in architecture. You have no choice but to work in studios so that’s how the groups form and they do get toxic because that program is very competitive. I think graphic design towards the later years definitely finds its groove and you have your people! Especially with Professor Acock thrown in the mix to help with that program is a big reason why.

J: Definitely! I actually never had Professor Acock for a class but I worked at the print lab with him. He had a big influence on building up the whole program. He was our advocate.

E: Yeah and it was really cool when we got the risographs! Never got to use them though.

J: That risograph was so annoying to deal with when we first got it. Acock would get his finger covered in ink and just smudge his fingerprints all over the place and make a mess!

E: Hahaha! That’s cute! I wish I was more involved like that. Because I was very in and out but I still enjoyed my time a lot.

J: You and I had a few classes together. We had illustration, life drawing with Ann Phong, and maybe a design class? I can’t remember the third.

E: Omg, yes! I love Phong! Did we had a design class together? I can’t remember but we had to. You finished school in 2017, right?

J: I basically finished in 2017 but I had to come back to take some GE classes in the winter of 2018. And it was very lonely because everyone I knew was gone! Haha

E: Hahaha awww! Well it worked out for you!

J: What was it like for you when you finished school and job searching?

E: I’ve been working since I was in college. I landed a gig in my hometown as a designer for a swimwear brand. Which was…interesting. Haha But it paved the way for what I do now which is focused on fashion and beauty.

J: And you’re freelancing now?

E: Yeah, so like right now I’m bouncing around between clients. I’m on retainer. Most of the work is marketing, email, website banners, and packaging so I get a bit of everything.

J: Be honest, do you even like design?

E: YEAH! I like it a lot actually! Hahaha

I think I want to find a bit of a niche though. I want to do something that focuses on community building. Like, I’d love to help out latinx business but it has to be a balance. I got to make a living.

J: I actually thought you were just a full-time artist now with ceramics! In my head, I thought you quit your design job and became a painter and ceramic artist!

E: Hahaha, let’s circle back! Because it kinda is like that. Are you only doing illustration now?

J: I haven’t done any graphic design in two years now. I’m working on a book design for Cal Poly but that’s about it. My last design gig was for A24’s movie poster for Minari. I’ve basically rebranded myself as an illustrator and painter. I want to be a full time artist but I feel like I’m not good enough. haha

E: Are you fucking kidding me? You’re so good! You have such a specific style that’s so amazing! But I totally understand why you feel that way and it sucks. You and I both came from corporate jobs in the design industry and it’s so daunting. Not gonna say any brands but I spent 2 years straight working 10-12 hour days and barely took any vacations. So I was so BURNT OUT!

J: Yeah, literally exactly the same thing. That’s why I quit. What did you do to fix your burn out?

E: As a birthday gift to myself, I quit my job with no back up plan! I felt great though! I worked for big names and start ups so I felt confident I’d be okay. I even considered starting my own agency. That’s when things got scary because I now had total control over my life but no control at the same time! Haha

J: Hahaha! Our careers and thoughts have been aligned all these years! Absolutely insane!

E: I think I’ve always been open to new opportunities but I wanted more. The company did a lot for me and gave me promotions but I was just NOT HAPPY!

J: Yeah, my job was my dream job. And people look at me like I’m crazy for leaving or not going back. But I just wasn’t happy and I think change is good for artists and designers to grow so I’m glad you made the changes for yourself! Design jobs are very demanding especially with agencies.

E: I had to call my supervisor once and tell them I’m going to go shower and then I’ll come back because the hours were just so crazy.

J: Agencies love to burn out their workers. And when you get burnt out, the only way to fix it is to quit and take time off. A two week vacation is not gonna do it for you.

E: It forced survival in a sense. It’s also the fact that I’ve never been good with schedules. Hahaha, I feel like as a creative person, it helps so much to be able to schedule yourself.

J: The best thing about freelance is the ability to have time for yourself and a schedule you want to work.

E: Exactly! My clients now are so great with time and understanding that it’s a partnership.

J: Do you show dominance over your clients? Because I’m constantly trying to prove to my clients that I don’t need them - they need me! hahah

E: Hahah, omg! No, I think most of my clients trust me and are open enough with me that I don’t feel the need to do that.

J: It’s a 50/50 for me. Working in Hollywood, there is just always someone trying to exploit you for payment, time, or whatever. It’s been a constant fight.

E: Once I get a feeling someone is trying to exploit me, it’s like byeeeee. Haha

J: What do you charge your clients for?

E: I charge my clients for everything. Even phone calls!

J: Is this call being charged?

E: haha, No! But it’s really important to charge stuff like that because it is your time and also your space. If you allow them to call you whenever, they’ll abuse that. As designers, we just need to understand our worth.

J: We honestly need a union or something like a guild that writers have. A lot of companies prey on young designers out of college because they don’t know anything about the industry and the working conditions, average wages, etc.

E: True, we do need some type of union. But there are people who love the lifestyle that these agencies give them - working crazy ass hours.

J: I feel like that lifestyle isn’t good for young designers. I was working at an agency that lacked young designers. Everyone was mostly married and had families so there was a lack of social life. And working those types of hours, it’s hard to find time to make friends.

E: I worked with brands with mostly people my age so I can see why it was a harder time for you! That’s rough!

J: How do you feel about the pace of work that agencies put on their workers? All about SPEED!

E: Oh…at first it was hell! It causes anxiety attacks sometimes with how fast paced things get! Now, it’s beautiful! Clients will give me a project saying it’s last minute and I’m like, “Oh, this is nothing! You don’t know where I’ve been! What I’ve done!” hahaha

J: What were some of your struggles when making the switch to freelance? Was it finding clients?

E: It was partially that. It was mostly like what you were going through. Just figuring out if I still wanted to do design or if I even like it still. I took a 5 or 6 month break from work. Having those conversations on what I wanted for myself. What if I chose a different career path? What if I only focus on art? I started doing ceramics just as a hobby and no intention of it being more than that which is crazy. I was getting some clients trying to hire me but I just didn’t feel ready. I knew I wasn’t ready because these were clients I would have loved to work with a year ago. So I was still just really burnt out.

J: They say that it can take up to a year to fix burn out depending on how bad you have it.

E: Yeah, I wanted to take my time and not rush into anything. The hardest choice coming back was deciding to go freelance or working another full time job. But luckily I waited it out and the right clients came to me. Shout out, (name cut from conversation)! Hahaha So yeah, I found amazing freelance clients that I like working with and it’s the happiest I’ve been since I could remember and I have the time for my art. It’s great!

J: That’s so amazing and I’m so glad that you’re in a good place with your life! And it’s so fucking crazy because we truly have been aligned these past years!!! Because it was rough for me as well going into freelance and making the choice to kill my design career and trying to figure out where to take my career. I was on a phone call with a friend, complaining about my freelance career when suddenly I got a call from another friend asking me to work on a project for Vogue! Dropped on my head from God!

E: Hahah awww! And you see, it’s all about patience! You rebranded yourself and that’s something eventually I’d like to do with ceramics. Clients will be attracted to your work as you keep going. It’s just all a matter of time.

J: Yeah, it’s strange now because clients usually will hire me now based not on my past design work for movies but instead my personal paintings that I do. Which is such a surprise to me.

E: Yeah and I love that because you have a distinct style like I mentioned before and so it’s only gonna take time for it to be noticed more and more. You’re very critical with yourself and I think most creatives are but when you do it…it’s like c’mon be real! Your stuff is good and not everyone can do it!

J: Ohhh, well, thank you, thank you!!

E: Ahahaha, oh shut it!

J: Freelance is just a rollercoaster, huh?

E: It really is. It’s like one week all your clients hit you up and the next you’re wondering where they’re all at. Haha So micro clients are pretty important to help with time slots like that. Also, a business license is highly recommended! Do you have one?

J: I don’t. What would I need it for?

E: Well, it’s so you can hire people on for when you need help with projects.

J: Oh, I just have the client pay for me to hire an assistant.

E: But, it also helps with your finances! But again, just wanna say I’m a sole proprietor and any financial advice should be taken lightly! Hahaha Think about it though!

J: You wanna know what’s the worst thing about freelance? Losing a client you actually like. A24 was my first freelance client and then they just disappeared. I have not heard from them since the beginning of lockdown.

E: You never know, they could always come back to you! I have clients from like 3 years ago who hit me up!

J: Yeah, but I work in entertainment design and sometimes it’s hard to compete for film projects when you have major design agencies as competitors.

E: Oh, true. But like…it’s only one client though so who cares! Hahaha

J: TRUE! Still a little heartbreaking though.

E: You’ll get over it. Haha

J: Have you ever fought with a creative director?

E: No! Haha Do you? I feel like you do. ahaha

J: I feel like I’m constantly at heads with creative directors now. A lot of the time I just think they suck at their job. I feel like it also has to do with the fact that I now work with creative directors that are roughly around my age and most of the time I feel like they try to have you do more than what is asked. The first creative director I worked with was Carlos Guiterrez, who was a veteran designer who just knew so much beyond anyone and I haven’t met a director like him.

E: Yeah, I understand that. That’s kind of how start up agencies are. They try to stick as many roles on you as possible and that gets annoying. It’s also just better to work with people who know what they’re doing because I feel that same way. In my head, I’m like I can do this better. But when you’re working with someone who you trust their guidance, it’s like wow! Magic! Haha

J: Sometimes I wish they’d just fire me. But, instead they just apologize!

E: It happens. Some projects just aren’t worth the money or the time. I’ve had a lot of projects that have felt stuck or there was going to be a celebrity involved so they keep holding off on approvals, etc, etc.

J: You’re super lowkey, huh?!

E: Huh? Hahahah

J: I feel like if I were you I would be flaunting that shit!

E: hahah, no!

J: I actually have no idea what projects you’re working on but I know they’re for some big clients! Like I never see you post any of your design work! Ahahah

E: Ahahaha, I know! And for good reason!

J: I love it though! Truly amazing! Bold! Sometimes I won’t follow an agency if they follow me on instagram. But I do it so they know the privilege was them working with me and not the other way around! ahaha

E: Ahahah, omg! No! But also yes! Hahah True power dynamics!

J: I’ve been exploited so much that this is where I’m at. Can’t trust corporate America!

E: That’s fair though! Non-profit organizations can be like that too. You just gotta hit them with the contracts.

J: I’m gonna hit you up everytime I have client trouble. You literally have your clients down to the inch. I’m truly jealous!

E: Yeah, honestly, you can! I’m still learning but I had a manager position so I know a lot on that side of things. But yeah, definitely let me know whenever you need help! Get you paid on time! Haha

J: If your ceramics pops off, would you drop your design work?

E: Hmm, maybe. I still feel like they are intertwined with each other. It would be really cool if I could find a way to mix them. But I don’t know. It’s hard to tell. I would let it pop off! It hasn’t even been a year and I think that’s what most people are interested in. But I’m also really into painting & drawing.

J: I love both your ceramics and paintings! The blue banana painting is SO GREAT! But, there is something about your ceramics pieces that are structurally fascinating to me and I don’t know if that’s because of your architecture background.

E: It’s a little intuitive for me and I think I’ll just stop fighting it and let it happen. Because ceramics is a block of mud, it kind of does its own things at times. I’ve also been holding back from drawing and have been focusing more on collages. Collaging is nice because, similar to ceramics, it allows you to be imperfect and work with more tactile materials. I did the blue banana still life during quarantine because I had nothing else to paint! Haha I’m not painting for the stars, I’m just painting my little fruit. It’s crazy though because now I feel the need to create something daily, almost like going to the gym. Do you feel that way?

J: Yeah, I do feel the same way but not necessarily always something physically. I like to also create ideas in my notebook. Just write down ideas that I would like to get to someday!

E: I just feel like I’ve been thinking in my head for the last 10 years instead of doing. You know, you have so many ideas in your head and they end up nowhere so now I’m just trying to get them out there!

J: Wow, you sound like an artist to me!!

E: It’s working! Ahahaha I still have so much to learn but I’m excited.

J: I’m gonna try to get your ceramic pieces in a movie set! Get you on the big screen!

E: Omg, just slowly push them out there. That’d be sick though!

You know it’s kind of funny to me when people start to have opinions about you leaving your 9-5. Like who asked you!?

J: I think people think they have an understanding of your life based on your social media. Which is so funny to me because people think I live this cool life because all I post are my projects. But in reality, I’m just working paycheck by paycheck trying to find the next job.

E: I find that glamorous! Hahaha I enjoy it! Especially because it is on your own time.

J: Oh yeah, definitely! I don’t think it’s glamorous but just like you were saying this has been the happiest you’ve been in a long time, is the same for myself. I was dealing with terrible depression. When I quit my day job and began focusing on myself, I felt way more at peace and my achievements felt more grand!

E: We literally have been living the same life. But yeah, sometimes we got to hit rock bottom. I took a fat pay cut and sometimes it is what it is.

*police sirens loudly in the background*

E: Omg, shut up! Ahahaha

J: All your clients are LA based?

E: Yeah or remote. I almost never meet them in person.

J: The best thing about freelance is not having to work in a studio.

E: Hell yeah! I don’t even think I could do a hybrid. Fuck that! I even took some time to go to Mexico. I love being able to work completely remote.

J: What’s a dream project you want to work on?

E: I’ve always been really jealous of…well…it’s nothing crazy…I could literally do this tomorrow if I wanted. But, I’m jealous of product designers. I would love to do furniture designs like a couch or a chair. I would also like to design spaces.

J: I’ve been watching youtube videos of how to make miniature furniture! Hahaha

E: Omg! That’s so cute! You’ve done some animation, right?

J: Some. But mostly experimental.

E: I feel like your paintings plus animation would be so dope. You got to hire some animators, man!

J: I got hired last year to work on 3D sculptures for a movie. I completely lied and said I knew how to sculpt in 3D programs. I spent weeks learning how to sculpt and paint. It was pretty insane. I don’t know if you remember those 3D sculptures I was rendering of the cartoon character I drew but that was me practicing for this movie.

E: Omg, what were you using? Autocad? That’s crazy! How do you just do that?!

J: I was using zbrush but I am a demon with Autocad. I would teach engineers how to use autocad. That’s how good I was with that program! Haha But you should try zbrush! It’s digital sculpting!

E: I’m gonna get into the ceramic NFT space! Haha Just kidding! I feel like I remember another similar story you said happened to you.

J: Oh, it was my first job in Hollywood! I told my creative director during the interview that I was 10 out of 10 with my photoshop skills even though I really didn’t know shit about photoshop. None of our professors really taught us how to properly use it.

E: Oh shit, right! Ahahah That’s wild! I would have crazy anxiety if I tried that! You always pull it off though so that’s good. I was wondering how you feel about stock images?

J: It is what it is. I think it’s more fun to create your own shots but that’s not always in the budget or fit the time frame.

E: But do you make your own textures?

J: I feel like in Mexico the way things are being marketed is evolving based on some work I’ve done for some brands there. I know the street vendors had their hand painted signs taken away by the president. So even the street level look that we’ve all come to know is changing there. I’ve never had the chance to see Mexico City so that may be an entirely different thing there.

E: Branding in Mexico is so lit! The block lettering and the colors are so good! Everyone here is trying so hard to replicate it. And Mexico is being influenced by American branding and marketing but it’s still its own thing because the demographic is different. I hate seeing brands here take cultural things from there and claim it as boho chic or something. The tangible is always gonna be attractive but everything is going digital. From my experience, I think a lot of American brands keep referencing latine culture maybe because it still has roots and history to a lot of tangible, handmade things. Something that as humans, we’ll also always yearn for and can’t be replaced with an NFT or a texture on illustrator. Brands know this, and they’ll use it as a marketing tools in their graphics, etc.

J: Is there a certain connection you feel with Mexico?

E: Of course. Everytime I go there, it’s so comfortable to me. I’ve been taking the time to go back and repair my relationship with it. Sometimes when I land I feel a great sense of relief. Like I’ve been holding my head underwater for far to long. And when I get there its an instant sense of comfort.

J: I used to spend all my summers in Mexico until I was 10 but then we stopped going and I’ve felt that desperate need to reconnect with it. Especially now that my dad is older.

E: Yeah. I think this generation is really trying to rediscover themselves and be more in tune with their culture and roots. At least I do! Where are you from?

J: From Jalisco. My dad lived in a small town called Santa Maria.

E: Makes sense. What was the closest city?

J: My Mexican geography is terrible! All I know is the town my parents are from. Hell, all I’ve seen and know of Mexico is the ranch.

E: You’ve been to Guadalajara though, right?

J: No! Hahah I want to see the city life there so badly!

E: Yeah! That would be rad! I’ve been loving my time there. Wanna know the opinion that everyone wants to fight me for? I honestly felt like Mexico city was very similar to LA! There are a lot of gentrified areas in Mexico. Literal LA people in Mexico hanging out and people just talking to you in english.

J: You’re telling me people speak english in Mexico City? My spanish is so trash so that benefits me. Ahahah Actually, Alex Sanchez was in a town near my dad’s hometown once. It’s called Arandas. I don’t know if that counts as a city but I’ve been there!

E: Omg. hahah yeah, you’ll be fine, trust me. You need to go! Oh, Alex has been everywhere!

J: I’m definitely gonna go! I just need it to be with my dad. I want to hear his perspective on how things have changed. It’s something my mom would do with me and my siblings in Los Angeles. She would drive us around and tell us all the things that changed since the 70s when she lived in the city.

E: Go! Your time is up!! Hahaha

J: I just got to plan it with my dad. He usually goes every year in November to celebrate his parents’ anniversary. But these past years he’s held off due to COVID.

E: That’s so wholesome! My parents haven’t gone too often and I don’t want to wait around for them. I think they’re just still affected by the violence in Mexico. But, I can’t remember the last time I’ve been there with my whole family.

J: I always wonder what my life would be like if my parents raised me in Mexico. Would I be married to my hometown girlfriend working on the farm with five kids?

E: You’d be born into an even playing field I think. Here in the states, we’re so focused on survival and making it here.

J: I’ve always been curious about whether people grew up with artistic parents. Because I felt like that gave them a bit of an advantage to get to draw earlier in their lives. Most latinos find their creative outlets later in life so I love hearing when one of us has a parent that does art.

E: I’ve always been jealous of people with artist parents! Theres a lack of so called “professional fine artists” in our community here in the states though. I’ve been noticing that lack of diversity with ceramics too. A lot of the studios I go to are not diverse at all. Its an expensive art form too so I think that’s also a factor.

J: Did you take ceramics at Cal Poly?

E: I was such a snob back then and I never took the class! I was uninterested in it! I only started it because I was down in the dumps and my sister had some air dry class or whatever she learned about on tik tok. I made some vases and it helped me to concentrate and I really enjoyed it! So from there I just kept going. I took some classes but they just weren’t for me. I liked being able to just tackle it and free think. I do like learning new techniques from people who have been working with clay for generations which I got to witness while I was in Mexico. That was all so reassuring to learn and see.

J: Wow, I love the way that was planned out for you. Haha I just love seeing people in Mexico. Unless they’re white, then I don’t really care.

E: Ahahah, true. That visit to Mexico with Alex was really dope! And I’m excited to meet other people who do ceramics. It was truly amazing getting the chance to see someone’s process that was taught to them in such a beautiful tradition. And the tools they use are so simple yet so effective. It was amazing!

J: Quick, what are your thoughts on Diego Rivera?

E: He was a piece of shit…but a genius. Hahaha But I don’t even think he was the most talented muralist of his time. And Frida was a socialite and came from privilege. So yeah, they had their issues.

J: Have you ever traveled to the east coast? Like New York?

E: Nah, never. I feel like I should though.

J: I’m so curious if you’d like it. Because you seem like a beach, sunny type person and New York isn’t always that. I went with my sister and she’s the same outdoors type. Her immediate response was, “This is why there are barely any Mexicans here. We don’t fuck with the cold!”.

E: Omg, yeah I am. Yeah. Sigh. But also very true! We don’t fuck with the cold. Ahaha I went to Portland and it was the worst. There is no diversity and you see the same people walking around. I need it to be 75 degrees or plus. Mexicans, man. We don’t fuck with the cold.

J: You just gotta get a happy lamp. In Seattle, they prescribe lamps that mimic the sun since they barely get sunlight and can cause depression.

E: Oh shit! Yeah, I need one of those forsure!

J: Would you want to live in Mexico.

E: Yeah I wouldn’t mind living in Mexico at all. I’d probably love it. I don’t know. It’s like, I wouldn’t want to gentrify it.

J: That’s how I am with LA. It’s weird, I know. But I constantly just feel like there is no need for me to move to LA since I’m only roughly 40 mins away. All my friends think I’m crazy though since all my work and friends are in LA.

E: Well, I don’t know, you grew up not too far from the area so I feel like it’s a little different. You can move to LA, there is no shame! Haha

J: You ever think about creating a group in LA for creatives?

E: Yeah! I’ve been thinking about creating a space where creatives can talk about their ideas because we’re always working on our own. But that idea went out the door. Ceramics has been taking it up most of my creative time... It doesnt seem to be available to a lot of the public though. Which i find insane because its literal earth! Why do we have to pay so much to play with the natural elements here in the states? Things that are readily accessible to humans? Anyways, I’d like to figure out a way to make it more accessible.

J: That’s how I feel about filmmaking. It’s so predominately white and it’s because it’s such a costly art form. But yeah, the dream is to make a movie someday so I’m constantly rooting for other latinos to achieve that as well because there is such a lack of Latin American born peeps making films. I love Alfonso Cuarón and Guillermo del Toro but they’re not necessarily making stories through our perspectives.

E: Dude, what the fuck! You have to do it! Not other people! You! You got to do that shit, John! Like, yes, support others but also get YOUR movie made! You should be starting the process or working at slowly.

J: I’m working on it! Trust me! I want to make a romance movie about a latino couple in LA that’s similar to the before sunrise trilogy! *John’s entire movie idea has been cut to prevent stealing*

E: Yeah, welp. You’re gonna make that movie. I’m manifesting it for you. That idea is so personal and touching and you have to make it! You just need someone to invest in you! You should look up some artist grants! We have to speak this into existence and it’s gonna happen! We need a romance movie that has a latin couple without some gringo being the love interest. haha